Question about Cadastre onciario?

lilbees · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: Question about Cadastre onciario?

I had made an inquiry to the Salerno Archives regarding the Cadastre onciario, Roccapiemonte, 1749.

After receiving this reply from the Archives I am wondering if there is someplace to search if this is possibly published and can be purchased.

Quote::

Gentile Signora,
l'Archivio di Stato di Salerno conserva solo il microfilm del Catasto onciario di Roccapiemonte, in quanto l'originale si trova presso l'Archivio di Stato di Napoli. E' possibile effettuare copia da microfilm tramite lettore stampatore, ma il costo delle fotocopie degli interi volumi supera i 500 euro ed inoltre occorrono altri 60 euro di spese postali per spedire le copie. Ci faccia sapere se desidera sostenere questa spesa, tenendo anche presente che si tratta di un lavoro lungo e che saranno necessari un paio di mesi, dal momento che il nostro ufficio di fotoriproduzione è soggetto a lavori di ristrutturazione e non può operare a pieno regime.
Distinti saluti
Il dirigente
dr. I. Ascione

Machine Translation of Email:

Quote::

Dear Madam,
the Archivio di Stato di Salerno keeps only the microfilm of the Cadastre onciario of Roccapiemonte, because the original is in the Archivio di Stato di Napoli. E 'possible to make copies from microfilm reader with printer, but the cost of photocopies of the entire volume exceeds 500 euros, and also requires an additional 60 euros for postage to send the copies. We do know if you want to support this expense, while taking note that it is a long time and that will take a couple of months, as the photo of our office is subject to the renovation work and can not operate at full capacity.
Yours sincerely
The manager
dr. I. Ascione

In doing previous searches on Google for document samples I did notice several Catasto onciario indicated they were published.

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thank you,
lilbees

nuccia

BArb,

I am still looking for an answer for you. So far, this is all I have found...does it help at all?

translate.google.ca/tr...26hs%3DCI0

charliemis

I had looked into hiring a local genealogist would go to the Archivio in Napoli to search the Catasto Onciario for my Dad's hometown, but I have held off as the economy continues to tank.....his rate seemed to be reasonable and he has done work for someone else on this list (as well as someone on another list) ---- both who highly recommended him. (send me a PM for his contact ifo if you need it).

I believe that Cathy was able to obtain a CD for her town from the Provincia di Cosenza, but they didn't seem to have my town available ---- it might cost $200--300 or so (I am not sure). I obtained a set of Catastini (little census) docs from Corato sent to me by a native of the provincia di Bari who now lives in Germany --- he did this when he went to the Provincial Archives in Bari went he went back home for a visit ---- they are very interesting, but these specific docs have no connections to other family members so there was no way to connect them to any of my ancestors.

lilbees

Taken from a site Nuccia had found, there was a sample letter to the Archives regarding research of the Cadastre onciario for a particular family. Think I will give it a try.

Can someone check if the wording is correct for me and can it be translated into Italian.

Quote::

Dear Mr. Director

Archives of State _____________

My name is ______________ and for some time I have been reconstructing the history of my family. I have come to know that in the Archives of State, records are kept of the Castasto Onciario for Roccapiemonte with descriptions of the families of each commune.

Since you have these records in your archive, I would be very grateful to have the composition of my family:

Father's name (head): ________________
Mother's name: __________________________
Year: _________________
City: _____________________

I am your waiting for a reply and thank you in advance for your kind attention, I offer you my regards.

Full name:
Postal address:
E-mail: _________________

Since I have confirmed with the Archives in Salerno that they do have the Cadastre onciario record for Roccapiemonte on microfilm it may be a possibility. Of course I will ask permission to make the request and inquire possible cost before I send the request letter.

lilbees

Carole

Hi Lilbees,
I did see your request earlier, but I must admit I left it in the hopes that an Italian mother tongue member might have time to help. But perhaps they're all busy, so I'll give it a try later this evening, but you know that I've always maintained that mother tongue translations are usually best.

But never fear - help WILL be at hand for you.. It's my supper time now (6.40pm) so I'll be back soon - unless someone else beats me to it!

nuccia

Carole..I wish I could do this translation but I am horrible. Hopefully someone can get this done this weekend although I think it would have better luck in the translation section. Lilbees, I am going to move it there and see what happens.

Carole

lilbees wrote:

Taken from a site Nuccia had found, there was a sample letter to the Archives regarding research of the Cadastre onciario for a particular family. Think I will give it a try.

Can someone check if the wording is correct for me and can it be translated into Italian.

Quote::

Dear Mr. Director

Archives of State _____________

My name is ______________ and for some time I have been reconstructing the history of my family. I have come to know that in the Archives of State, records are kept of the Castasto Onciario for Roccapiemonte with descriptions of the families of each commune.

Since you have these records in your archive, I would be very grateful to have the composition of my family:

Father's name (head): ________________
Mother's name: __________________________
Year: _________________
City: _____________________

I am your waiting for a reply and thank you in advance for your kind attention, I offer you my regards.

Full name:
Postal address:
E-mail: _________________

Since I have confirmed with the Archives in Salerno that they do have the Cadastre onciario record for Roccapiemonte on microfilm it may be a possibility. Of course I will ask permission to make the request and inquire possible cost before I send the request letter.

lilbees

Right lilbees - this is what I would have written. Maybe a mother tongue person would be kind enough to give it a check - it's not like doing certificate translations or writing to a friend. But I hope it's OK...

Alla cortese attenzione del Direttore
Archivio di Stato di……………………

Ogetto: Castasto Onciario for Roccapiemonte

Egregio Sig. Direttore

Mi chiamo…………………………… e per qualche tempo sto ricostruendo la storia genealogico della mia famiglia. Sono riuscito a scoprire che dettagli del Castasto Onciario per Roccapiemonte si può trovare nel Archivio di Stato, e che contengono descrizioni di tutte le famiglie in ogni Comune.

Dato che avete queste registri nel Archivio vostro, sarei grata se può mandarmi dettagli della mia famiglia:

Padre (capo famiglia):…………………………
Madre:……………………………………………
Anno:………..
Citta………………….

In attesa di un Suo gradito riscontro.
Ringraziando per l'attenzione.

Nome in pieno:
Indirizzo postale:
E-mail:

JoeB

Carole wrote:

lilbees wrote:

Taken from a site Nuccia had found, there was a sample letter to the Archives regarding research of the Cadastre onciario for a particular family. Think I will give it a try.

Can someone check if the wording is correct for me and can it be translated into Italian.

Quote::

Dear Mr. Director

Archives of State _____________

My name is ______________ and for some time I have been reconstructing the history of my family. I have come to know that in the Archives of State, records are kept of the Castasto Onciario for Roccapiemonte with descriptions of the families of each commune.

Since you have these records in your archive, I would be very grateful to have the composition of my family:

Father's name (head): ________________
Mother's name: __________________________
Year: _________________
City: _____________________

I am your waiting for a reply and thank you in advance for your kind attention, I offer you my regards.

Full name:
Postal address:
E-mail: _________________

Since I have confirmed with the Archives in Salerno that they do have the Cadastre onciario record for Roccapiemonte on microfilm it may be a possibility. Of course I will ask permission to make the request and inquire possible cost before I send the request letter.

lilbees

Right lilbees - this is what I would have written. Maybe a mother tongue person would be kind enough to give it a check - it's not like doing certificate translations or writing to a friend. But I hope it's OK...

Alla cortese attenzione del Direttore
Archivio di Stato di……………………

Ogetto: Castasto Onciario for Roccapiemonte

Egregio Sig. Direttore

Mi chiamo…………………………… e per qualche tempo sto ricostruendo la storia genealogico della mia famiglia. Sono riuscito a scoprire che dettagli del Castasto Onciario per Roccapiemonte si può trovare nel Archivio di Stato, e che contengono descrizioni di tutte le famiglie in ogni Comune.

Dato che avete queste registri nel Archivio vostro, sarei grata se può mandarmi dettagli della mia famiglia:

Padre (capo famiglia):…………………………
Madre:……………………………………………
Anno:………..
Citta………………….

In attesa di un Suo gradito riscontro.
Ringraziando per l'attenzione.

Nome in pieno:
Indirizzo postale:
E-mail:

Hi Carole, me again. Wondering if you would do a small translation for me? I have attached the correspondence below. You make me glad I'm part English... Very Happy

I know, I know,,,part BS-er too! Right? Reminds me of a story: While traveling through Austria my wife and I bumped into a couple of Brits vacationing. We got along great and had much fun together. Said one of the Brits when explaining our easy friendship, "Well, we speak the same language, although you Yanks do muck it up a bit." We never forgot those two wonderful old gents... Very Happy

And the translation request is:

Ciao Joseph,
ho aggiunto i dati che mi hai mandato. Mi è venuto un sospetto: Luigi De Maso era figlio di Giambattista e Mar??? Girardis. Nel mio sito esiste un Giambattista figlio di Sebastiano De Maso di Nebbiù che sposa il 1 marzo 1813 a Valle di Cadore una Maria Antonia Giacchetti. Dal momento che la grafia è di difficile interpretazione come si deduce da quel "Mari???", non potrebbe essere stato frainteso anche il cognome, cioè "Girardis" invece di "Giacchetti"? Bisognerebbe vedere i documenti parrocchiali a Pieve riguardanti i genitori di Luigi De Maso.
Ciao
Roberto

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Blackwell
To: Roberto Piccioli
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: DE MASO Luigi e DEL LORENZO Irene

Hi Roberto, some new DE MASO data for your Family Tree.

Sincerely,
Joseph Blackwell

Carole

Here you go Joe... the plot thickens here too, it seems!
'C'

Quote::

Ciao Joseph,
ho aggiunto i dati che mi hai mandato. Mi è venuto un sospetto: Luigi De Maso era figlio di Giambattista e Mar??? Girardis. Nel mio sito esiste un Giambattista figlio di Sebastiano De Maso di Nebbiù che sposa il 1 marzo 1813 a Valle di Cadore una Maria Antonia Giacchetti. Dal momento che la grafia è di difficile interpretazione come si deduce da quel "Mari???", non potrebbe essere stato frainteso anche il cognome, cioè "Girardis" invece di "Giacchetti"? Bisognerebbe vedere i documenti parrocchiali a Pieve riguardanti i genitori di Luigi De Maso.
Ciao
Roberto

Translation:

Hi Joseph,
I have added the information that you sent me. But I have a suspcion: Luigi De Maso was the son of di Giambattista e Mar??? Girardis. On my site there is a Giambattista son of Sebastiano De Maso of Nebbiù who married one Maria Antonia Giacchetti at Valle di Cadore on 1 March 1813 .
Seeing that the handwriting is difficult to interpret how did you reach the conclusion of that "Mari???", couldn't the surname have been misinterpreted too, that is "Girardis" instead of "Giacchetti?" We need to see the parish documents in Pieve regarding the parents of Luigi De Maso.

Bye,
Roberto

JoeB

Carole wrote:

Here you go Joe... the plot thickens here too, it seems!
'C'

Quote::

Ciao Joseph,
ho aggiunto i dati che mi hai mandato. Mi è venuto un sospetto: Luigi De Maso era figlio di Giambattista e Mar??? Girardis. Nel mio sito esiste un Giambattista figlio di Sebastiano De Maso di Nebbiù che sposa il 1 marzo 1813 a Valle di Cadore una Maria Antonia Giacchetti. Dal momento che la grafia è di difficile interpretazione come si deduce da quel "Mari???", non potrebbe essere stato frainteso anche il cognome, cioè "Girardis" invece di "Giacchetti"? Bisognerebbe vedere i documenti parrocchiali a Pieve riguardanti i genitori di Luigi De Maso.
Ciao
Roberto

Translation:

Hi Joseph,
I have added the information that you sent me. But I have a suspcion: Luigi De Maso was the son of di Giambattista e Mar??? Girardis. On my site there is a Giambattista son of Sebastiano De Maso of Nebbiù who married one Maria Antonia Giacchetti at Valle di Cadore on 1 March 1813 .
Seeing that the handwriting is difficult to interpret how did you reach the conclusion of that "Mari???", couldn't the surname have been misinterpreted too, that is "Girardis" instead of "Giacchetti?" We need to see the parish documents in Pieve regarding the parents of Luigi De Maso.

Bye,
Roberto

Thanks Carole, I will write Roberto, as soon as I can think of something to say.

charliemis

This series of questions is about the Cadastre Onciario, I have always seen this referred to as the Catasti Onciari ..... is this the same thing --- CENSUS or is it something else?

Carole

The difference appears to be linked to 'when and where' it was used.

As a starter this article >HERE< although in Italian, does give a hint:

"....Tra questi riveste particolare interesse quello previsto per il compartimento della Toscana, dove al tempo dell'occupazione francese si attua un vasto censimento fiscale che costituirà le basi del nuovo catasto. Il 7 ottobre 1817 Ferdinando III Lorena istituisce il Catasto geometrico particellare della Toscana, di chiara derivazione dal Cadastre parcellaire francese [5]."

Translation:

"...Among these powers (there is) particular interest seen in the Tuscan department, where at the time of the French Occupation they took a huge fiscal census that built the base of the new catasto. On the 17th October 1817 Ferdinando III Lorena established the Catasto precise geometric survey of Tuscany, which was clearly based on the Cadastre parcellaire francese."

charliemis

Carole wrote:

The difference appears to be linked to 'when and where' it was used.

As a starter this article >HERE< although in Italian, does give a hint:

"....Tra questi riveste particolare interesse quello previsto per il compartimento della Toscana, dove al tempo dell'occupazione francese si attua un vasto censimento fiscale che costituirà le basi del nuovo catasto. Il 7 ottobre 1817 Ferdinando III Lorena istituisce il Catasto geometrico particellare della Toscana, di chiara derivazione dal Cadastre parcellaire francese [5]."

Translation:

"...Among these powers (there is) particular interest seen in the Tuscan department, where at the time of the French Occupation they took a huge fiscal census that built the base of the new catasto. On the 17th October 1817 Ferdinando III Lorena established the Catasto precise geometric survey of Tuscany, which was clearly based on the Cadastre parcellaire francese."

THANKS!!

lilbees

After emailing the letter requesting if a search can be made of the microfilm for the above, I received this response this morning.

Quote::

Gentile Signora,
come le abbiamo comunicato, l'Archivio di Stato di Salerno conserva il catasto onciario di Roccapiemonte nelle bobine n. 30, 31, e 32 per un totale di 1976 fotogrammi, dai quali si potrebbero rilasciare stampe da lettore-stampatore del costo unitario di euro 0,28 del formato 20x30, per una spesa complessiva di euro 553, 28, ai quali sono da aggiungere ? 60,00 di spese di spedizione. La ricerca da Lei richiesta non è possibile perché l'Archivio di Salerno conserva solo il microfilm, e non gli originali. Forse potrebbe rivolgere la Sua domanda all'Archivio di Stato di Napoli, che conserva i volumi originali del Catasto onciario.
Distinti saluti
Il dirigente
dr. I. Ascione

It seems that this email is a nice way of telling me NO TO RESEARCHING THE MICROFILM at the Salerno Archives.

Is that correct?

Thanks,
lilbees

charliemis

Sounds like they will print it out for 600+ Euro.....no other options