Help translating document

tjbrn · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Ah, Livio, that is a nice piece to the puzzle I've been working on!

Luca · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

http://img515.imageshack.us/i/ignazio.jpg/

Did the marriage take place on Christmas? I can't make out the notations in the left margin and the phrase after Ignazio's name following the word Comunale. Also the "foglio" notations on the right side of the document, do they refer to the church records or the Civil records?

On the left side it's reported the wish of the man and the woman to perform their wedding in front of the Church and in the right side it's said that the religious rite took place on the 25th of December: so the civil act refers only to a "promise", while the true rite is the religious one

tjbrn wrote:

This second page of the document is difficult, especially the writing in the upper left.
img515.imageshack.us/i...azio2.jpg/

8 atti di consenso della genitrice della sposa
9 fede di essere state affisse le notificazioni; di esere stato scorso il termine della legge ... e di non esserci stata opposizione
Lo sposo non avendoci esibito l'atto di morte del di lui avo paterno, ci ha dichiarato con giuramento d'ignorare il luogo della morte e dell'ultimo suo domicilio
I testimoni intervenuti nel presente ci hanno dichiarato con giuramento di conoscere lo sposo e la sposa, ma d'ignorare il luogo della morte ed ultimo domicilio dell'avo paterno dello sposo.

liviomoreno wrote:

I will leave it to Luca who's eye and expertise are much better than mine

Esagerato!!! Shocked

liviomoreno wrote:

I believe that the annotation on the left margins says that Ignazio Dragotto was the widower of Stefania di Paola

I read the same thing, but there is a word that i can't understand: the phrase seems to be "ultimo luogo della fu Stefana (or Stefania) di Paola xxxx" Confused

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks so much for all of the help. I hate to be a bother. All of this activity comes as I concentrate more on solving some of the puzzles of my ancestors. I took a break from working on genealogy for some time but the passing of my mother and the birth of my first grandchild a few months ago just days apart renewed my desire to learn more.
I am going to my local FHC this morning to resume working on the microfilms I ordered. There was a prior page which contained the beginning of the numbered list that I posted. I failed to make a copy of that but will do so this morning. In fact, I realized after I left the FHC that there were more documents associated with the marriage documents that I had copied.

Meanwhile this marriage document has confusing elements, particularly the references of Cristofalo Dragotto's parents
.
img23.imageshack.us/i/...ofalo.jpg/

Is the deceased Giovanna Lovello Cristofalo's mother? And is the deceased Giuseppe Antonio his father, are these the father's given and middle names?

liviomoreno · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

The deceased Giuseppe Antonino [Dragotto] was Cristofalo's. Maria Santangelo, aged 58 was Cristofalo's mother.
The decease Giovanna Lovello was the previous wife of Cristofalo; the sentence is Cristofalo Dragotto vedovo (widower) della fu Giovanna Covello.

I believe that the correct surname is Covello since I could not find any Lovello in Sicily...

Luca · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca wrote:

...Lo sposo non avendoci esibito l'atto di morte del di lui avo paterno, ci ha dichiarato con giuramento d'ignorare il luogo della morte e dell'ultimo suo domicilio

Tom, did you already know this information? It's very strange that Ignazio was unaware of where and when his father died!

L.

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

No, all of this is new to me. I only know that Ignazio's father was Gaspare. I am off to look at films. Hopefully I will find more information to clarify what I have already discovered.

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca,
This is part of the marriage document for Ignazio that I missed.

img180.imageshack.us/i/img033.jpg/

liviomoreno · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

img180.imageshack.us/i/img033.jpg/

list of the documents that were presented for the marriage purpose:

1) Baptism act of the groom
2) Death act of the groom's father
3) Death act of Stefana di Paola once wife or the mentioned groom
4) Birth act of the bride
5) Death act of the bride's father
6) Death act of the bride's mother
7) Death act of the bride's paternal grandfather

Luca · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

So, at this point, i gave you a wrong information:

Luca wrote:

"...Lo sposo non avendoci esibito l'atto di morte del di lui avo paterno, ci ha dichiarato con giuramento d'ignorare il luogo della morte e dell'ultimo suo domicilio"

Tom, did you already know this information? It's very strange that Ignazio was unaware of where and when his father died!

The missing document concerns Ignazio's grandfather and not his father.
Sorry

L.

Luca · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Tom, the translation of the last document give you a big information: if you will have the chance to find the "processetti" (and theirs "allegati") of the year 1850, then you'll realize a Bingo!

L.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

There are films from Belmonte listed as Allegati 1846, 1850, 1851, Matrimoni 1857, 1860-1865, Morti 1820-magg. 1839, Memorandum 1836-1865. The FHC is closed until next week so I can't order the films until then. I plan to review all of the Belmonte tapes eventually but it is always exciting to make discoveries sooner than later Very Happy

What is the distinction between processetti and allegati?

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Is the name of the child Gaetano on this birth document? Also the dates and ages are difficult to decipher.

img18.imageshack.us/i/natij.jpg/

If this child is named Gaetano, it is the second child of Ignazio's that bears that name.

liviomoreno · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

I read Gaetano and the birth date is Nov. 20, 1821 - The registration date is Nov. 21 as well as the baptism - Ignazio was 32 and Stefana di Paola 22.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks, Livio, but are you certain about the year? The year looks as if it ends in a 9, possibly 1839?

liviomoreno · Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Yes, it is 1839.