Help translating document

Luca · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Quite hard to read Confused

Last lines:
"Il documento presentato è il certificato delle eseguite pubblicazioni di matrimonio rilasciato da me ufficiale dello stato civile in data di oggi stesso ... gli sposi hanno dichiarato che dalla loro unione naturale sono nati 3 figli denunciati a questo ufficio di stato civile la prima col nome di Dragotta Grazia addì 2(?) Maggio 1886, il secondo col nome di Dragotta Ignazio addì 14 ottobre(?) 1889 e il terzo col nome di Dragotta xxx addì 16 febbraio 1895(?) e che mediante questo atto di matrimonio li riconoscono per loro figli legittimi agli effetti di legge.
Letto il presente atto a tutti gli intervenuti è stato sottoscritto meno dagli sposi perché analfabeti."

Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks, Luca. I don't know how you do it!

Could the third child's name be Benedetto? Also I can make out Rosaria as Teresa Italiano's mother's given name but I can't seem to get the surname.

And I am assuming that the children belong to Nicolo and Teresa. Was this a common practice to add such information to a marriage document later?

Luca · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

Could the third child's name be Benedetto? Ok.

Also I can make out Rosaria (Ok) as Teresa Italiano's mother's given name but I can't seem to get the surname (maybe Agiola)

And I am assuming that the children belong to Nicolo and Teresa. (Yes) Was this a common practice to add such information to a marriage document later? Only when, such in this case, the parents were not married at the time of the child's birth. Or better: they were surely married, but only with a religious rite, and for the State their children were illegitimate. So, at the moment of the civil marriage, they declared to recogize the already born children like their legitimate and natural sons. This situation took place until 1929, when were signed the "patti lateranensi": after that date the religious marriage had also a civil value.

Luca

Sorry for my crummy english.

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

No, Luca, I am the one who should apologize for his poor language skills. Your contributions are quite valuable and greatly appreciated.
Is this document dated 2 Feb 1895? It seems the religious ceremony took place prior to 1886. Was the date of the religious rite ever included somewhere in the civil document?

uantiti · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

I believe the groom's name is Mazzola but I cannot decipher his given name ....

Could be "Gervaso or Gervasio", to me.

Ada

Luca · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

uantiti wrote:

Could be "Gervaso or Gervasio", to me.

Ada

It could be, but if you look at the "G" of the name Gaetano it looks quite different. I thought at Anestasio too, but i'm not sure.

tjbrn wrote:

Was the date of the religious rite ever included somewhere in the civil document?

Not at all.

L.

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

My films came in at my local FHC and I happened upon a few interesting documents. I think it was a pretty good day. This birth announcement is slightly different than others I've seen. Was the child healthy?

img132.imageshack.us/i/img020x.jpg/

Luca · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

...Was the child healthy?

Nothing is said, in the act, about the health conditions of Gaetano.

L.

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks, Luca. I couldn't understand the word following "bambino" near the end of the document. And this seems to confirm that Ignazio did have children with his earlier wife Andreanna.

I have questions on additional documents that I'll post later.

Luca · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

...I couldn't understand the word following "bambino" near the end of the document...

... bambino suddetto (above-mentioned).
The first name of the mother could be Andreana (with only a "n"); in the left column it seems written "Andriana", but i think that Andreana can be the right form.

L.

liviomoreno · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca wrote:

... bambino suddetto (above-mentioned).

L.

... bambino predetto (before-mentioned).

Rolling Eyes

tjbrn · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

img515.imageshack.us/i/ignazio.jpg/

Did the marriage take place on Christmas? I can't make out the notations in the left margin and the phrase after Ignazio's name following the word Comunale. Also the "foglio" notations on the right side of the document, do they refer to the church records or the Civil records?

This second page of the document is difficult, especially the writing in the upper left.

img515.imageshack.us/i...azio2.jpg/

Luca · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

liviomoreno wrote:

Luca wrote:

... bambino suddetto (above-mentioned).

L.

... bambino predetto (before-mentioned).

Rolling Eyes

Questa volta non sono d'accordo con te, Livio: per me c'è scritto proprio sudetto (con una d sola, com'era usanza allora, anche se io l'ho scritto con due secondo l'ortografia corrente) Wink

L.

Carole · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

I can't read the annotations in the left margin, but the left column says they appeared before the mayor at the 24th hour on the twenty fourth of December.

The right hand column seems to be the priest confirming that he married them on the 25th December - so a Christmas Day wedding.

(my maternal grandmother was married on Christmas Day too - but in 1911)

liviomoreno · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

img515.imageshack.us/i/ignazio.jpg/
I will leave it to Luca who's eye and expertise are much better than mine, however I believe that the annotation on the left margins says that Ignazio Dragotto was the widower of Stefania di Paola (?)