Ambrogio Bianchi

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Hi all,

After a long search I found my great grandparents marriage contract from NYC in 1905. It stated my GGF was born in Bisuschio, which is in Varese, Lombardy region. His parents were Agostino & Maria. He died at 80 years old in 1943. His DC states he was born on December 2, 1862. Although his age varies greatly among the census records, as does his immigration date. So I cannot determine which is him.

I hired a local historian who did numerous thorough searches, and she could not find his birth record, or any record of him. She found what we think is the marriage record of his parents, Agostino & Maria in 1860, and the BC of an infant daughter born to them in 1861, who died the following week. After that, there is no record of Agostino & Maria Bianchi, or any other subsequent children or their deaths. If Agostino and Maria are my GGF's parents, she can go back several generations. But we cannot find my GGF's birth certificate!

The historian felt they probably relocated somewhere closeby for work. Initially, I had found a few Ambrogio Bianchi's immigration records stating last residing in Ferentino, a short distance from Rome. She initially stated that was a farming area, and my ancestors were stonecutters, so didn't think it was related. But now, we are starting to reconsider, as an older cousin of mine had thought his mother had always thought Rome. Perhaps my GGF stated Bisuschio because thats where his family was from, and still considered it home. I don't know !

So, I am switching gears and am now trying to search Rome archives. Are these records online? Assuming Ferentino records would be at the Rome archives? If the records are not online, does anyone have the link to the Archives?

Any help would be much appreciated !! Thank you !

Debbie

Biff83 · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 1263 Location: Florida

Because he was born prior to 1866, the town will not have a civil record of his birth. Did the person you hired check for baptismal records at the church? I believe the Church is San Giorgio Martire.

Biff

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Thanks for your reply Biff,

Yes she did search the parish records, as well as the Milan Archives, which is how she found what we think are his family, based on names and timeframe, but without his certificate we can't be sure.

Initially, she didn't think they went too far away. My GGF is also a stonecutter (as was all his family), so they obviously relocated to somewhere else where there were quarries, since he became one also.

But we are now thinking perhaps they did go that far south. She is native to the Varese area, so would not be able to help me with the Rome area.

Would you know if those records are online for that time period?

Thanks !

Debbie

suanj · Researcher Joined: Sep 06, 2007 Posts: 112

Hi, because are several Ambrogio Bianchi, the best way is to start from known data, so the birthyear and the parent's names(Agostino Bianchi and Maria Nitti). I believe, by age, that this could be your ancestor's arrival:

Ambrogio Bianchi

United States Italians to America Index

Name Ambrogio Bianchi
Event Type Immigration
Event Date 10 Jun 1895
Event Place New York, New York, New York, United States
Gender Male
Age 32
Birthplace Italy
Occupation Smith
Ship Name La Touraine
Birth Year (Estimated) 1863
Departure Port Havre
Literacy Unknown
Destination Place NEW YORK
Transit or Travel Compartment Staying in the USA [Transit]; Steerage [Travel]
Affiliate Manifest ID 00082668
Affiliate ARC Identifier 1746097

the mother maiden name Nitti, by Ambrogio Death record:
Ambrose Bianchi
New York, New York City Municipal Deaths
Other information in the record of Ambrose Bianchi
from New York, New York City Municipal Deaths
Name Ambrose Bianchi
Event Type Death
Event Date 26 Oct 1943
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Address 3085-34 Strat, Astoria
Residence Place New York, Queens, New York
Gender Male
Age 80
Marital Status Widowed
Race White
Occupation Mason
Birth Date 04 Dec 1862
Birthplace Italy
Burial Date 30 Oct 1943
Cemetery St. Johns Cem.
Father's Name August

Father's Birthplace Italy
Mother's Name Mary Nitti

Mother's Birthplace Italy
Spouse's Name Anna

...
abt Bisuschio, you found the birthplace on what document?
Regards,
suanj

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Hi Suanj,

Thanks for your response! Yes, this could be him. I am on Ancestry and Family Search and have saved this record. The timing is right, however he claims to be a smith. Every record I have of him, he is a stone-cutter or stone mason. So, I wasn't sure if this person would be correct. I have every census record and his age has never been reported the same twice. He has reported from 1862 - 1870. Although I think 1862 & 1863 are more accurate. His immigration year is different on every census also. So very hard to confirm. He claims 38 in 1905, and 80 in 1943 on the DC for example.

I have a very small torn portion of the original marriage contract of my GGP's from 1905, from the NYC clerks office. I did a search at the NYC Municipal Archives, and they had never seen a "marriage contract" before or even heard of one, and could not find the document.

I started searching old newspapers from the Library of Congress, and started finding articles from that time frame. I found an article stating that more than 2,600 marriage contracts had been signed off on from the NYC clerks office between 1901 & 1905. Most of them were of immigrants. I went back to the Municipal Archives and asked the director to please look in the city clerks records from 1905, and not the marriage certificate records, which is where they search.

Thankfully, he went the extra mile, and searched the clerks contract records. And thousands of marriage contracts were found that the archives didn't even know they had in their repository. Including my ancestors ! I searched seven years for it, in order to find out where in Italy we are from!

The NYC Municipal Archives is going to scan them and make them part of their vital records, but that has not been done yet. However, he sent me mine, and I'll attach it. They should be available in the near future. I have been meaning to post on here about them, as I'm sure many of them will be of Italian immigrants of the period.

The marriage contract states he was born in Bisuschio, son of Agostino & Maria ( no maiden name given). The historian found only one record of Agostino Bianchi and Maria in the records, and it was Agostino Bianchi & Maria Bianchi, from Pogliana, a hamlet of Bisuschio. Married in 1860. Not Mary Nitti. There is no Nitti in any documents. She searched the parish, Varese, and Milan Archives for Ambrogio and his family.

She thinks perhaps at the time of recording his death document, that there was some confusion with his wife's maiden name being given, which was Nizza. Nitti was not a northern name, so she was suspect of it from the beginning. We do not believe Nitti to be correct at this time.

From the marriage of Agostino Bianchi and Maria Bianchi in 1860, she found their family, and was able to go back several generations. Maria Bianchi had several sisters and a brother names Ambrogio.

At the time, we are fairly confident that these are my ancestors. The problem is Agostino & Maria disappear after the birth/death of daughter in 1861, and are no longer in any of the church records or Milan Archive records. So I am starting to consider they went that far south to the greater Rome area.

There is another immigration record, arriving on April 13, 1904. Ambrogio Bianchi is 42, so born in 1862. Last residence was Ferentino. He is traveling with his nephew Paolo, 20 years old, and they are going to see Paolo's brother, also Ambrogio's nephew, Ambrogio Bianchi, living on Mulberry Street in NYC. This record would help explain why he was so old in 1905 when he married my GGM. Because he just arrived in 1904. A possibility.

My GGF has been very difficult to verify. Every document gives different information, and proves to be very difficult to confirm. I thought when I found the marriage contract stating where in Italy he was born, the hardest part was over !

I am now trying to search the greater Rome area for Agostino & Maria Bianchi, and their son Ambrogio, and any other children. I don't know if there are online records, or the link to the archives to send a request.

Can you please tell me if any records are online? My GGM, Annetta Nizza was born in Santo Stefano Roero, Cuneo. The historian working with me sent me a few links, and I was able to go through the records one by one, and found the birth of an older sister, and the marriage record of her parents! Unfortunately the records did not go all the way to 1876, when my GGM was born, so we are still working on finding her birth record.

Suanj, sorry for the long post, but I have learned it is best to state what I do know, and what I have searched already, in order to help people who are trying to help me.

Thank you so much for your help !

Debbie

suanj · Researcher Joined: Sep 06, 2007 Posts: 112

Hi, yes a big confusion... but now the only certain data are the his birthplace and parent's names, no mother maiden name, because Nitti found is no reliable... ok, it could be also bianchi her maiden name... On ancestry no many records abt Bisuschio, all are abt 1930s, so no helpful, but many Bianchis married to other Bianchis, the Bisuschio was a little village and really I found many Bianchis but no Nittis... for a period time Bisuschio was part of Como province, and I don't understand why no civil records on line, however I read that many people from Bisuschio moved in Viggiù, or Arcisate, Como, so in some town near Bisuschio but more helpful for the work, and searching in the civil records of Bisuchio for the 1930s I found that some people moved in Argentina, in France and also in USA, obviously... these infos reading the attachments in the deaths.... However in Varese provincial archive, your genealogist can search in the military record abt Ambrogio and maybe to read his last residence at time of military service... because the family moved from Bisuschio, Yesterday I read all civilrecords abt the Bianchis in Bisuschio and no one pertaining a Augusto, or Augustino or Agostino (= Augustine in english), so the family moved...
regards,
suanj

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Hi Suanj,

Thank you for your search and help ! Yes, that is the determination we have come to. The last search she conducted was a search of military records of Varese, and found no record of him there either. I do not believe he immigrated early in life, so I think he would have a military record in Italy somewhere.

As I mentioned, her search of Bianchi's in the Bisuschio area in that time-frame produced only one Agostino & Maria, both were Bianchi. Interestingly, both of their parents were also Bianchi. So, if they are my ancestors, all four of my GGF's grandparents had the surname Bianchi !

Suanj, if there are no records in the Varese or Milan Archives, and they moved south of Bisuschio, wouldn't the records from that area be in the Rome Archives? I don't think there is a place in between Milan and Rome, where records are archived, is there? Wouldn't the records of all the small communes south of Varese, Lombardy, be at the Rome archives?

I would think that is the next best place for me to start looking? Do you agree?

I have attached the birth record of Marta Amalia in 1861. Agostino & Maria were married in 1860. The death record of Marta the next week is the last record of them in Varese. But, this is who she thinks are Ambrogio's parents.

All from Bisuschio/Pogliana.

Thank you so much for your help !

Debbie

suanj · Researcher Joined: Sep 06, 2007 Posts: 112

Hi,
no doubts, anymore abt parent's names... however It is impossible that no more records in Bisuschio, on in Varese provincial archive, if the military records no in Varese maybe he moved in other province, and Bisuschio, for some time made part of Como also... Sooner or later the research gives the result, but it takes time and money and so much patience... Abt Roma central archive, well there are no records abt that... or interesting for your search... Since there is already a genealogist who is engaged in research, I am sure that sooner or later will find the right track....
Also studying the history of the Bisuschio, and the migration flows, could find.... Personally I think they might have gone to Italian Switzerland, in the Ticino Canton..
best regards,
suanj

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Oh my goodness ! Another country to search! My ancestors are keeping me very busy !

I have never heard of Italian Switzerland. I will definitely look into it. I see it is in close proximity to Bisuschio. Thank you for that information.

My researcher is a local historian in Varese. She stated after searching for the military record, that was as far as she could go with Ambrogio. She actually went to the Varese and Milan archives to do a thorough search since not all records are online. I believe she searched for a span of 10 years (1860-1870) and did not find another record of Agostino and Maria in Varese. Not even as godparents. No death record. She also searched the church in Pogliana, to be safe.

So, I don't believe she will be doing any other research outside of Varese. Understandably, it would be too far to travel.

I found a couple of immigration records for Ambrogio Bianchi's from Ferentino. And I found quarries near Villalba. Outside of Rome. An older cousin remembers his mother had thought Ambrogio was from Rome. So I was surprised to find Bisuschio on the marriage contract, which is still puzzling. I am going to concentrate on the Rome area for now, and I will now also look into Ticeno Canton.

Thank you for your help Suanj !

Debbie

suanj · Researcher Joined: Sep 06, 2007 Posts: 112

Debbie,
the Ambrogio Bianchi coming from Ferentino is not your ancestor.. he was born in Bisuschio for sure... abt the Switzerland I can confirm that many stone cutter went to work in the Canton Ticino of Switzerland.... and because no records in Varese provincial archive and ditto in Milan provincial archive, maybe searching in the Canton Ticino archive your genealogist could be something...
best regards,
suanj

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Suanj,

Are you saying that you think Ambrogio was definitely born in Bisuschio? Even though she could not find the birth record?

And the family relocated somewhere else after his birth?

My researcher had suggested that perhaps they relocated before his birth, (since she couldn't find the document) but he said Bisuschio on the marriage document, because that was the family home, and thought they would go back someday.

But you think he was born there?

I will definitely discuss Ticeno with her and see if she will search the archives. I will look myself also and see what they have online.

Thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it.

Debbie

suanj · Researcher Joined: Sep 06, 2007 Posts: 112

Debbie, before is the same Ambrogio who stated his birthplace, no doubts... and Biff already replied, just the baptism record can be found, because your Ambrogio was born before of Italy union... the problem is to find the Church... because sometimes the parents went no in the local Church for the child's baptism, but because he was born in December, I believe that with so much snow in this area, they christened the baby in the local Church... when I don't know, maybe the same day of Birth, sometimes after some month, but, however he was born in Bisuschio, because he stated so in the marriage contract, so I believe he said the truth.....
abt other ideas, I don't know, the genealogist work on this search and it could be possible that they moved in Ticino...
best regards,
suanj

debbiemfit · New Member Joined: Jul 19, 2016 Posts: 20

Suanj,

Thank you very much for your help. I am already looking into your suggestions!

Debbie