Legends

charliemis · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Translation Help

Luca,

I have completed my Maternal Family from San Giorgio Albanese reviewing 100 years of births, deaths and marriages and extracting all records with my family cognomi; I have completed about 50% of my Paternal Family ---- or about 40 reels of microfilm (90 total), again all births, deaths and marriages. My records include all siblings at each level ---- plus if available on marriage records "parents of spouses". In some cases, the "dots have not yet been connected", but in San Giorgio Albanese, I most likely am related in some manner to at least 50% of the people living there today. In Corato, which is much. much larger, the same is not true. I have some pretty unique surnames in my family, and we are talking from about 1750 to present time. a lot of people have come and gone in 250 years.

Luca · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Translation Help

So you are no more a legend Mr. Green

Great job, indeed Wink

. I thought the number of records was equivalent to the number of ancestors and siblings, so I was very surprised Shocked

. Like I said, I need to work hard yet, but in same case I arrived to the end of XVI century, and often in XVII; despite that I'm "only" at 1200-1300 individuals, and I didn't realize how you was able to reach such a result living in U.S.A. (the documents you can consult on-line or by microfilm are only a little part of what you can find living near your ancestor's towns!).
Thanks for explanations.
Ciao
Luca

charliemis · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Translation Help

Luca wrote:

So you are no more a legend Mr. Green

Great job, indeed Wink

. I thought the number of records was equivalent to the number of ancestors and siblings, so I was very surprised Shocked

. Like I said, I need to work hard yet, but in same case I arrived to the end of XVI century, and often in XVII; despite that I'm "only" at 1200-1300 individuals, and I didn't realize how you was able to reach such a result living in U.S.A. (the documents you can consult on-line or by microfilm are only a little part of what you can find living near your ancestor's towns!).
Thanks for explanations.
Ciao
Luca

Luca,

I have been trying to gain access to church records in both Corato (BA) and San Giorgio Albanese (CS), but so far I have not been able to obtain any info. Supposedly the church records for San Giorgio Megalomartire are destroyed, as my cousin went there with her Father (a native) some years back. I have also visited with the Parrochio di San Domenico in Corato and I was told to contact the Chiesa Matrice for documents prior to 1900 ---- so far they have never sent me any requested info (I made a personal visit with my request).....I have also written to the Diocese Archives in Barletta who replied (email), but never delivered any requested info. According to the "l'Ufficio di stato civile in Corato, his records commence in 1809 (same as the FHC), so while he has been very helpful, he claims he has no prior data available and I must get Church records. It seems that I have hit a brick wall. I have some info from the Catastatini which lists some people with my surname, but there is no way to connect them with anyone.

And, even though I have not yet made connections to all the names I have extracted (and I believe that all people with a common surname do have a common ancestor if you trace it back far enough, especially in the same town), I am related to many of them as it seems there were always many children (and of course high death rates) born back then --- it has not been uncommon to see 6 - 8 children per family. In my Father's case (born in 1903), he had 4 "1/2" siblings from my Grandparents 1st marriage and 4 full blood siblings (and they all died)

Luca · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Translation Help

charliemis wrote:

I have been trying to gain access to church records in both Corato (BA) and San Giorgio Albanese (CS), but so far I have not been able to obtain any info [Just like I said above, unfortunately for you]. Supposedly the church records for San Giorgio Megalomartire are destroyed [are you sure? Not all the Priests are interested in having genealogists around them! Say your cousin to try again Wink

] as my cousin went there with her Father (a native) some years back. I have also visited with the Parrochio di San Domenico in Corato and I was told to contact the Chiesa Matrice for documents prior to 1900 ---- so far they have never sent me any requested info (I made a personal visit with my request).....I have also written to the Diocese Archives in Barletta who replied (email), but never delivered any requested info [You need someone near Corato who can carry out the work for you!]. According to the "l'Ufficio di stato civile in Corato, his records commence in 1809 (same as the FHC) [Possible], so while he has been very helpful, he claims he has no prior data available and I must get Church records. It seems that I have hit a brick wall. I have some info from the Catastatini which lists some people with my surname, but there is no way to connect them with anyone.

And, even though I have not yet made connections to all the names I have extracted (and I believe that all people with a common surname do have a common ancestor if you trace it back far enough, especially in the same town [Not always: sometimes it's possible that two identical surnames are not related, even in the same town Sad

] ), I am related to many of them as it seems there were always many children (and of course high death rates) born back then --- it has not been uncommon to see 6 - 8 children per family. In my Father's case (born in 1903), he had 4 "1/2" siblings from my Grandparents 1st marriage and 4 full blood siblings (and they all died)[/b]

Ciao
Luca

Cathy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 2681

Luca, I am curious now. What kind of information can you obtain locally in Italy? If I hired someone I was wondering if it would be worth the cost.
Thanks Luca. kiss

Luca · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Translation Help

Cathy wrote:

Luca, I am curious now. What kind of information can you obtain locally in Italy?

E' un discorso complesso che difficilmente riuscirei a spiegarti in Inglese: provo con l'italiano sperando tu riesca a capirmi. Gli atti di nascita, matrimonio e morte pur essendo fondamentali, non sono i soli documenti utili per un genealogista ma, avendo tempo e pazienza, si può ricostruire un albero genealogico anche con altri strumenti. I più importanti sono:
1) Stati delle Anime
2) Processetti matrimoniali
3) Catasti
4) Rogiti notarili (Doti, testamenti, vendite, prestiti ecc)
5) Sentenze dei Tribunali (Civili o Ecclesiastici)

Magari un po' per volta (se qualcuno è interessato) proverò a spiegarvi come cercare queste informazioni, dove, e cosa si può ricavarne. Comunque la cosa fondamentale è che, oltre ad aiutare nella ricostruzione del filo genealogico, sono strumenti in grado di darci delle notizie più peculiari riguardo ai nostri antenati, facendoceli conoscere in particolari della loro vita quotidiana o in fondamentali episodi della loro esistenza, e restituendoceli più "vivi" e "vicini" a noi e non semplici nomi e date su un foglio di carta!
So che, scrivendo in italiano, difficilmente riuscirete a capirmi, ma sapendo quanto voi tutti siete attaccati alle vostre radici credo che uno sforzo (anche se grandissimo!) per cercare di imparare questa meravigliosa lingua sia l'unico mezzo per avvicinarvi veramente alla vera essenza dei vostri avi.

Cathy wrote:

If I hired someone I was wondering if it would be worth the cost.

E' una domanda da 1.000.000 $. Dipende da tanti fattori diversi e non posso risponderti con un semplice si o con un no. Magari quando avrai capito cosa potresti scoprire con delle ricerche più approfondite sarai in grado di darti una risposta da sola: in ogni caso non sarebbe una ricerca veloce ed economica Sad

Ciao
Luca

charliemis · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Translation Help

Luca,

Your English is very good, please do not be afraid to use it with the group --- in most cases I am sure that you speak and write in English much better than we do in Italian.

You have really peaked my interest. I have been able to trace my ancestors back to my "Il Padre di mio Trisavolo" [GGG-Grandfather} who was born sometime around 1750 (I found his Atto di Morte and calculated back). Where might I find some more info about him and perhaps his parents, aside from Church Records? Another goal would be to try and determine how long my Paternal Ancestors have lived in Corato and if they migrated there from somewhere else. Any ideas as to what records I might try to obtain? I might be able to get some local assistance in Corato from my family [they all think that I am crazy in looking for this information, but they like to read my family trees and records I give them;-)].

grazie mille. Rolling Eyes

Luca · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Translation Help

charliemis wrote:

Luca,
Your English is very good, please do not be afraid to use it with the group --- in most cases I am sure that you speak and write in English much better than we do in Italian.
Thank you Embarassed

. The main problem is that to write in English I spent a lot of time (more than writing in italian, of course!) and I prefere using it to help you with manuscripts (really difficult for non-italians) that whit traslations (everyone can do it with a online dictionary!)

You have really peaked my interest. I have been able to trace my ancestors back to my "Il Padre di mio Trisavolo" [GGG-Grandfather} who was born sometime around 1750 (I found his Atto di Morte and calculated back). Where might I find some more info about him and perhaps his parents, aside from Church Records?
Confused

Church Records are the most simple way to create your family tree! As I said

Quote::

... si può ricostruire un albero genealogico anche con altri strumenti. I più importanti sono:
1) Stati delle Anime
2) Processetti matrimoniali
3) Catasti
4) Rogiti notarili (Doti, testamenti, vendite, prestiti ecc)
5) Sentenze dei Tribunali (Civili o Ecclesiastici)

Church Records aren't the only documents, but the simplest to find for you (thanks to FHC, above all)

Another goal would be to try and determine how long my Paternal Ancestors have lived in Corato and if they migrated there from somewhere else. Any ideas as to what records I might try to obtain?

For years earlier than 1850 you should try with "Stati delle Anime" a sort of census drawed up from priests every Easter. You must search in "The Archivio Diocesano" of Corato or the nearest Diocese

I might be able to get some local assistance in Corato from my family [they all think that I am crazy in looking for this information, but they like to read my family trees and records I give them;-)]. Good

grazie mille. Rolling Eyes

charliemis · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Legends

Thanks Luca,

I see that you live in Terni ---- we visited Foligno last October ---- the area is beautiful ---- we went to Perugia for the Festivale di Cioccolato, then Assisi and finally to Spoleto ---- there were so many things to see in the area, but we needed more time as we were only there for a few days.

Luca · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Legends

Really a wonderful area Wink

But I'm not impartial Mr. Green

However this is an example of a "Stato delle Anime"

Whit a bit of luck you (better: someone for you) can find a census for each parish and for each year, so you can know if they stayed always at the same place or not, how many component had the family and other information.
Hope it helps you
Luca

charliemis · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Legends

Thanks Luca,

I am assuming that the Anime is a civil record ---- I think I am reading correctly that it lists Giuseppe, his wife, his brother and his daughters and the street where they lived?

I have asked both Corato and San Giorgio Albanese for a Scheda di Famiglia for two of my Great Grandfathers---- no luck, but my cousin obtained one for me for my Paternal Grandparents ---- and I learned that my Grandfather was married 3 times, the third time at age 70 (and my cousins called his 3rd wife a ladro). Your document was copied from a book --- I thought they had to research many records to compile the information, but it seems that it might not be quite as difficult, but they must locate the correct record in the right book.

The Anagrafe in Corato has told me (I was with my Italian cousin) that all of her documents were destroyed ---- does the Office of the Anagrafe keep separate records than the Office of Civil Records (which has been very helpful to me in providing Atti di Nascita, Morte e Matrimonio). The L'Ufficiale di Stato Civile did tell me that his records begin in 1809 (Codice Napoleone). Please excuse me for so many questions, but it is very difficult to know how record keeping is done in Italy and having the correct information will help me to know who to ask for the correct info

liviomoreno · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Legends

charliemis wrote:

Thanks Luca,

I am assuming that the Anime is a civil record

[b]Stato delle Anime is a Church record...

JamesBianco · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Legends

liviomoreno wrote:

charliemis wrote:

Thanks Luca,

I am assuming that the Anime is a civil record

[b]Stato delle Anime is a Church record...

Yes a very vague, but sometimes useful Church Enumeration of Families. Ages are not listed, and in most cases the only valuable info you can obtain from them is the complete family unit for that particular year.

On my Carini Exchange Website I have the complete Carini Stati di Anime for the years 1755,1757,1777 and 1786

You can have a look at what to expect here:

Carini (PA) Stati di Anime

Jim

Carole · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Legends

A Stato delle Anime was similar to what we today call a census.

It means the status of the souls (people). It was a record kept by the church of the number of 'souls' in their parish/diocese and to whose body those 'heavenly' souls belonged to.

Luca · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Legends

This is the first part of a "costituzione di dote" that is a contract made in front of a notary in which are defined the conditions for the imminent marriage.

This is a partial transcription of the act:
Dotale
Prò
Cecilia Mariani
Die Decima Februarii Millesimo Septingentesimo Septuagesimo Septimo, Ind(iction)e X, Pont(ificat)us SS(anctissi)mi D(omino) N(ostro) Pii PP. Sexti, anno ejus secundo.
Essendo stato concluso, e stabilito il Matrimonio da contraersi frà l’onesta zitella Cecilia figlia di Giuseppe Mariani, dà questa città di Terni, da una parte, e Giuseppe Fortini fig(li)o del q(uonda)m Gian Maria da Collescipoli, dall’altra, colla costituzione, ed assegna di dote, come si dirà in appresso, e delle cose concertate a bocca volendone fare publico Istro(mento), di qui è che:
Avanti di me Not(ar)o, e de’ testimonii infra(scri)tti, personalmente costituiti il sud(ett)o Giuseppe Mariani, alias del Colle figlio del q(uonda)m Francesc’Antonio, e Lucia Carissimi figlia del q(uonda)m Angelo, ambidue dà Terni à me [Notaro] cog(ni)ti spontaneam(en)te § insolidum §, ed in ogn’altro miglior modo § promisero di dare la sud(ett)a Cecilia loro figlia per legitima sposa, e consorte al sud(ett)o Giuseppe Fortini p(rese)nte, e con esso, servate prima le solennità richieste dal Sacro Concilio di Trento, e S(anta) Madre Chiesa, consumarà il S(anto) Matrimonio, liberamente §.
Ed all’incontro il d(ett)o Fortini promise [...]
E per Dote, e nome di Dote di d(ett)a Cecilia li sopradd(ett)i Giuseppe, e Lucia suoi genitori insolidum § costituirono, ed assegnarono alla med(esim)a, e per essa al sud(ett)o Giuseppe Fortini, di lei futuro sposo, p(rese)nte, tutti, e singoli mobili domestici, biancarie, ferramenti ad uso di campagna, semoventi, ed ogn’altro ad essi spettante, e che si trovaranno in essere, da conseguirsi doppo la morte d’ambi due essi costituenti, e che si trovassero in qualunque luogo, per i quali fin da ora, per quando § gliene trasferirono ogni dominio anche colla cl(ausol)a del costit(uit)o e prec(ari)o in forma.
E si è convenuto per patto espresso fra dd(ett)i contraenti, ch’essi futuri coniugi debbino restare a convivere con i predetti costituenti ad un bene, ed un male nella med(esim)a casa, che si abitarà da costituenti sudd(ett)i, durante la loro vita, per il di cui mantenim(en)to ciascuno dovrà impiegare le sue fatighe a seconda delle forze, perché così §
Della qual dote [...] il prenominato Fortini se ne chiamò adesso per quando l’averà percetta ben contento, e soddisfatto, e quella promise mantenere per d(ett)a sua futura sposa [...]
Quae omnia §, alias §, de quibus§, quod §, prò quibus § (...)
Actum Interamnae in Archivio Ap(osto)lici praesentibus Angelo Antonio fil(io) Jo(ann)is Hieronimi Conti de Collestatte Spolet(anae) D(ioeces)is, et Dominico Diamanti filio q(uonda)m Francisci de Interamna t(esti)bus.
Ita est. Th(oma) Dominicus Agostinangeli Not(ar)us rog(?)s.

To find a deed interesting for your research you must go at the "Archivio di Stato of Bari - Sezione di Trani" and ask for "fondo notarile di Corato".
Ciao
Luca